Most people just learning about packgoats have the same basic questions. I thought I would take a minute to list each with a brief answer.

What kind of Goat is a "packgoat"?
Right now there are no specific "packgoat breeds". Goats used for packing are usually from the larger swiss dairy breeds, though goats from any breed can be used. Goats used to pack are normally castrated males called wethers.

How big are they?
Packgoats can be any size but generally speaking most packers are 175-250lbs.

How much can they carry?
Goats can carry 25% of their body weight. In this case a 200lb goat could carry 50lbs. Experienced packers will tell you lighter loads mean more trail covered at the end of the day but I have put 30% on goats for shorter trips.

How far can they go in a day?
I figure on 4-6 miles for goats that are not in shape. 6-10 for goats in good shape and even more if the goats are well conditioned. Obviously terrain makes a huge difference in how much trail you covered at the end of the day. The farthest we have ever had goats travel in one day was with Sandra Egli from Switzerland who did 20 mile days with two of our packers on the PCT. (Thats her photo with Dexter in the upper left corner of the forum)

Do you have to lead them?
No, in fact its better if you don't. Goats used for packing are usually bottle raised (not always) so they are bonded to humans. They are naturally herd animals and consider you the herd leader and will follow you anywhere. Thats the behavior we use for packing. They generally follow along like the family dog.

Do you have to pack in feed?
Not in most cases. Goats are natural browsers which can easily live in most backcountry areas. They love weeds, brush, tree leaves and pine needles, which are readily available in almost every area. If you are in a public camp or sensitive alpine area you may need to take some supplemental feed.

How do you haul them?
Most people use a wire rack, truck cap, or small trailer. They can easily jump into a pickup. (See the Training Forum)

For feeding and housing requirements see the "Goats at Home Forum".

I'd like to add that many breeding programs now use a percentage of Boer and Spanish crosses to add more muscle to the typically strreamline dairy types. A 1/4 Boer or less is useful to bulk up a goat without adding too much weight and also not getting the short legs typical of the meat goat breeds.

sweetgoat mama
Carolyn Eddy

What kind of size are you seeing out of these crosses? I know you and Charlie have been working on them for several years now. Just wondering how it was going?

We are putting out a goat that is consistently around 250+ pounds and still has a leggier appearance than the Boer. This is a photo of two kids that I sold to Charlie Jennings last year. They are still under 1 year here.

They look frisky!
Charlie J. called me on the way home from the Vets office with some actual weights. Very impressive! He's on the forum so maybe he'll post some more photos of them as they grow.

I have a pair that I got from Charlie G, Beta has hit the 200 lb mark this year, gorgeous legs and unbelievable can do attitude.
Rebecca Stacey
Woodpecker Hollow
Fallon, NV

How old is Beta now?

Uh, 4 years old now, finally gained enough weight to make me happy, has been long and lean forever. NO he's not fat, he's well balanced and looks the part. And his sister never did get much taller, she's proportional but with short legs like her grandsire Las.
The rest of the herd, they're fat.....but happy.
Rebecca

This is a picture of Beta 2 years ago, he grew a couple more inches...Charlie took this pic taking care of the critters while we were gone one weekend...

Thanks

first question is there a height limit on the goats..?

Well there really aren't any packgoat "standards" per se. Most people aim for goats in the 200 lb range standing at least 36 inches at the shoulder. But thats not a requirement. Some of my best packers were 34 inches tall and weighed 175 lbs so size isn't everything. The tallest goats I know about are in the low 40 inch range for height. The taller they are the longer their legs and the more trail you can cover at the end of the day. Short goats are often slower and may have trouble fitting into their gear properly.

Hello,

do you mean body height?

As body size and body weight are related a goat should have a minimum height resp. weight to make the idea of packing at least, well, worth the effort.

F.e. if you have a pigmy goat (they can pack, don't doubt that) you will very soon reach the weight limit they can carry and often max it out with the packing equipment already (saddle, panniers). Also, a smaller goat has shorter legs and must therefore take more steps (more muscle activity) to go the same distance as a goat with longer legs.

As for maximum height: I don't think that goatpacking should develop into "bigger, larger, faster". The overall conformation has to be harmonic, bone size and body size must still fit and I think that's it's fair to assume that a "giant goat" will develop structural or organica. problems over time, like giant dog breeds. For me, it's looking at the wild living forms of a domesticated animal to see what works well (size, behaviour, conformation, etc.).

It depends so much on what you want to do with your goat and how it can perform (smaller goats can have more stamina than a larger one who's lazy). If you want to do serious packing you should have a goat with a minimun size of at least 100 - 120 lbs, if you want to pack just for fun without serious loads and/or distances - you can adapt what you already have.

"If you want to do serious packing you should have a goat with a minimun size of at least 100 - 120 lbs, if you want to pack just for fun without serious loads and/or distances - you can adapt what you already have."

I would think for "serious packing" you would not want a goat no less than say a 180lbs. 100-120lbs that is tiny.

My geriatric Sonny goat is 38" and only weighed 190 in his prime. But, he has the longest legs I've ever seen on a goat. He moves like a border collie.

If a goat has a good overstep, where the back foot lands in or in front of the print left by the front foot on the same side, he's going to be a very efficient mover and take longer, labor-saving steps.

This can be seen at a very early age and tells you all kinds of things about the goat's eventual ability to be an efficient mover. Also the ability to singlefoot, which is not seen that often in goats is useful for efficiency. It's where the goat steps with both legs on one side of his body then both legs on the opposite side. Kind of like a trot only not diagonal pairs of legs. Loads carried by these types of goats don't bounce up and down but track more level and so are eaier and less tiring for the goat to carry all day long. Plus the taking of less steps means less tired.

It's all about being an efficent mover.

I've had a bunch of goats and have never seen one walk like that. Seems to me that it may not bounce up and down but the side to side movement would be increased. I'd like to watch one in action sometime. Anyone have a goat like this? I'd like some video of it walking with a pack on. Front, side and rear views. Just curious...

Charlie and I do. The spine doesn't move laterally but the muscle slides laterally around the spine If you understand how the back muscle under the saddle works, it wants to shift side to side as the animal moves. So allowing this movement instead of the up and down movement creates a more efficient mover. This is one of the reasons that gaited horses such as Paso Finos, tennessee walkers, 5 gaited saddlebreds, etc, are so smooth to ride, the legs at speed move in this pattern.

I just got a video from Europe that is an hour and a half of computerized horse movement showing the bones and muscles and how they work together. Not something you'd want to run out and buy at $60 but really instructive for how all this stuff works.

I've got several singlefooters. Some horses naturaly singlefoot but it is called different things depending on breed.

The singlefoot is a broken pace, a lateral, four beat gait. The feet move from the left rear then the left front and as the left rear is hitting the ground the left front is almost hitting so that the footfalls are very close but not exactly together like a pace, then the right rear and the right forefoot strike. The footfalls are rythmic tic-a-tic-a-tic-a... The walk is a diagonal 4 beat git but the rythm is different. tic-tic-tic-tic

The panniers on these goats do not twist nor bounce, they sort of gently giggle just a little bit. It is a very smooth gait with very little movement of the load, unlike the walk which has the load rolling from side to side.

My horse was a paso cross and he gaited like a "sewing machine" as gaited horse enthusiasts like to state. I always won the egg and spoon, dollar and glass races at Gymcanas on this horse because he could scream around the ring and nothing on his back would move, not even the grape juice in my glass.

Arie, Dante, Kel and Mike all singlefoot regularly. I've noticed that the goats who tend to exhibit this gait do more of it under a load, which I take to mean makes the miles easier on them. These individuals do seem to show a great deal of stamina, but they were bred for stamina so that does not suprise me.

I do know that my little horse could cover more ground and faster than any of my friend's non singlefooting horses, including arabs and thouroughbreds. They all had to trot to keep up with him and either the horse or the rider would all eventurally need a rest when he could just continue on, mile after mile over rough terrain without missing a beat. He was a joy to ride.

What it amounts to, over miles and under a load, is less fatigue, not more inherant stamina, which is a result of the animal's degree of fitness, his or her conformation, overall health and personality.

I've seen other goats do this gait, alpines tend to do it more often than other breeds that I've watched, but I'm sure it will occur in any breed or cross on occasion, I'm just trying to get it when I breed so I'm likely getting more of it.

After all, a dairy or meat goat seldom needs to travel far and most goat folks don't know what a singlefooter is unless they've had horses and pay attention to movement like Carolyn and I do.

Charlie Goggin
Lightfoot Packgoats

Hello, Guys

This forum is really neat place, I enjoy reading everything here.

I do have big question, what does it cost to raise a pack goat?

Price of feed,
Supplements,
Training,
Grooming,
and Treating for parasites, and other diseases,

Silvertonian (Colorado?)... welcome!

There are a lot of variables. The cost of a little weaner buck (3 months old and no longer needing milk) shouldn't be more than $75 or so from a dairy. If you buy one from a real packgoat breeder (which you should if you can), it may be more. Somebody like Rex, or Charlie G, or Carolyn Eddy would be able to answer that more accurately.

Vet bills? I think I paid $150 to get each of my boys castrated at age 7 months. After that, no regular vet bills unless they get sick or injured. Just an annual CD&T shot that costs less than $10 if you do it yourself.

Feed? That's where things get fuzzy. If you have a place and the time to take them out frequently to browse on wild stuff (trees, brush, weeds, etc) then it would really help, both with the cost and with their health. If not, I would say a bale of hay (75lb two string bale) should last almost a week per goat. There is a lot of controversy over what kind of hay to feed. Some people say alfalfa is bad for them, others say it's ok. I can get hay that is 1/2 grass and 1/2 alfalfa and I think it works fine. My guys get a lot of wild juniper, pine, oak, weeds, stickers, cactus, etc too. They love it, and I think it's really good for them. A little 3 way grain or some other supplement for the first 2 years. A trace mineral salt block will last a long time. Clean fresh water daily, year round.

Other costs. A sturdy but simple barn or shed to keep them dry and out of the wind, plus a predator-proof pen to lock them up in. My 3 boys live comfortably in a pen that's about 25 ft x 25 ft. Their shed is about 10 ft x 10 ft. It is open to the south, and closed on the other 3 sides. I take them out to browse or hike almost daily.

Another cost is a way to haul them around. If you have a pickup truck, that's all you need. I haul mine around in an old trailer made from a pickup bed. Some people haul them around in the back seat of a Subaru, but I would think that would get really old really fast.

Gas money to take them out hiking and camping. The farther you have to go to get to places where you can do this, the more it costs, obviously.

Pack goat saddles and panniers, leashes, and collars: $200 per goat.

Time. That's the most important thing. The more time you can spend with them out hiking and camping, the better packgoats they will be. There isn't much to training them to carry a packsaddle. They are pretty indifferent the saddle. It's camp and trail manners that take some time for them to learn.

And you need 2 or more goats. They aren't loners, they need a goat buddy.

I wish I could get another goat (or 5)

As much as we would love to get Cuzco a companion, at this point it's entirely out of the question. We live in a zoned neighborhood with covenants (which I'm sure we are stretching with only one goat even though we refer to him as a "pet"), and while our neighbors all adore Cuzco, I'm not sure they would be so indulgent if we got him a buddy!

I pulled the zoning law in our area just to find out. It says that the property may not be used for animals with the exception of "household" animals.

Since the ordinance doesn't define it, "household" is up for interpretation.

In my interpretation, "household" means they aren't used for traditional farm purposes, such as meat or milk. Since many dogs are not permitted inside the house, but are permitted as "household" animals, living inside cannot be one of the requirements.

My goats carry my load when walking and are a service animal akin to a seeing eye dog.

Though I have had compliance officers complain about my ugly trucks, they have not mentioned my goats.